Tape #252 - Domestic Violence

number of your office again? 202/690-7650. Um, in addition in the exhibit area are national woman's health information center and the Office on women's health have an exhibit area down in the exhibit center. Many of you I am sure have stopped by there this morning. And the information center may have that number right at hand. They could have looked it up for you. So, if they are not there this afternoon then stop back tomorrow and have them look on the web and they can pull down that number. I apologize for not being that prepared. At any rate, what are we doing, I did tell we are working with the Department of Justice on both sides. Let me talk about the health side and then swing back onto the justice side. Have any of you heard about the Violence Against Women Act? It was passed three or four years ago, a significant chunk of money. I want to say somewhere around forty-five million dollars and part of it was to address justice issues and part of it health. It is up for renewal in this current legislative session. Pieces of it have been reintroduced. What it did was to help build infrastructure on the health side as well as the justice side to help us be able to better address women's situations in health settings. Women also present for health care coming from a violent setting and it has never been listed by the health care provider. Women may come in repeatedly with a variety of health ailments, intestinal ailments, constant headaches, big symptoms that don't really indicate disease or illness. But in fact, are symptomatic of the stress that they are living with in a violent home situation. Part of the funding from the Violence Against Act is to help educate health providers about just desensitizing them to raise their awareness about these issues for women. To train them in ways to appropriately elicit a history of living in an environment that is not safe and to make the appropriate referrals to resources. The worse thing that can happen is for a health care provider to ask a woman are you living in a violent situation and perhaps the woman cannot answer yes or any of the number of reasons but it the physician doesn't in turn say well if you should ever encounter it here of some resources. If there is nothing there to back up that provider, all the provider does is ask then may cause more problems for the woman than they might actually solve. So, we have been able to show that from research and from studies of women who have been trying to leave environments or their health care providers have actually been more hurtful than helpful. So trying to address that issue and improve through training. Our own Secretary of Health though a couple of weeks ago relayed a story when she was asked a question in her physical exam, the question was, "Do you live in a safe place?" What does that mean? She could have said Washington, D.C. What is she gonna say? And you know, it's not an appropriate question, but that was the provider's very weak attempt to find out whether or not she was living in an environment that could be violent. We also in focusing on health care providers we are also trying to improve definitions and better understand what is going on just what is domestic violence. Some people think it's just between spouses but in fact there is a broader definition that comes under a group or a family with intimate violence. Or it may be spouse to spouse or it may be parent to child it may be child to elder, if you will. Because elders is a significant and growing problem in this country and that is also part of the domestic violence picture. So, we need to be clear what we are talking about when we talk about domestic violence. And in many instances, we truly mean family and intimate violence because these are interpersonal violent situations that are occurring that strictly speaking might not be what we'd say is domestic. It could be occurring outside your own home but in the home of, you know, a sibling or a parent or the home of a child. Looking also at the definitional issue when we think about violence it's hard to think of it as a health problem but um, I think we succeeded a few years ago in convincing many of our key leaders that indeed violence is a health problem it's a health problem when it prevents you from getting necessary health services and in many instances women living in a violent situation with an abusive spouse may actually be prevented from getting care that they need for serious medical conditions. Women often for one reason or another and it doesn't even have to be a good reason I mean what good reason is there for an abuser to withhold a necessary medication for instance for diabetes or for epilepsy but there are cases on record where the abuser is using that medicine, if you will, as a weapon and denying it to the woman who needs it for her chronic disease or her chronic illness because she's, "misbehaving". She's doing something wrong in the eyes of the abuser. So, in that specific instance, obviously violence is a health issue. Violence is also a health issue obviously as a cause of injury and as a cause of death. And in terms of women and their likelihood of being killed it is far more likely that women will be killed by someone that they know either a spouse or an intimate partner or family member of one sort or another. Women statistically are far less likely to be killed by random acts of violence. The exception is in the retail area, women working in convenience stores that are retail settings where there's money and you know and robberies and other things, violent situations take place there and homicide is indeed a major cause of death for women in the work place but let's just back off and not confuse too much the issue of homicide in the work place because the numbers of the homicides in the work place that are domestic related are not particularly high it's not even high but it's not quite half those cases. More of those are random robberies, random acts of violence than they are domestic. Other causes of homicide is a cause of death for women are family related they tend to be someone that the woman knows. Um, on the research side again moving on from the definition we have to understand what it is we are talking about we have to understand what is the scope of the problem and we have found out that the statistics on family violence are not very accurate in this country. We don't have national reporting systems and the police will get a report that may not be a report that is also filed with the health care system a woman for whatever reason may not seek care from a physician or health care provider. She may seek care from a provider and never call the police. So, we have not totally disarrayed systems of data collection in this country. So, we truly don't know what the level of affect is and the number of women affected by violence. You hear figures like one every 30 seconds, three million women a year, etc. We are truly not sure. We don't have a whole lot of confidence in those numbers. We think it could be one and a half to two million but some estimates do put it as high as three to three and a half million per year women who are victims of family and intimate violence. So, we are working to improve surveillance is what we call that ______ assistance. We are also working to find better ways to intervene and again, intervening on two problems on the health side and on the justice side. And on the health side, intervening both for the victim, as well as for the batterer. There is not a lot of good evidence out there about batterer treatment. But there are some small programs that have shown some very promising trends that the abusers can be retrained in how to properly recognize their emotions and to properly carry out in a non-abusive way, you know, their own emotional needs. But very, very small studies have been done. But, of course, we are working on the victim's side to try to increase the number of shelters and safe houses for women, training of health care providers I already mentioned and raising awareness on the issue in general. Working through women's groups, community-level service providers to raise awareness about the problem of domestic violence and family and intimate violence in this country. And to ensure that there is shelter or a safe place available for a woman when she determines that it's time to leave. None of us can make that decision for any one of us. It's very tough when you look at a situation it's like, how can she stay there? But you know we are not living that we don't know what the circumstances are and the best we can hope to do is to try to build enough trust and help that woman understand that when it is time for her that there are some resources in place that she can turn. Communities try very hard when they have a safe shelter, a battered women's shelter, they try very hard actually to keep that shelter's location as quiet as possible. Because many states and communities don't have scoffing laws and women often will leave home where they are a prisoner in an abusive situation. They leave there and go to a shelter and find that they're a prisoner again. Because they are not protected from the abuser who, you know, may well find out if at 336 South 4th Street sits out there in a car just waiting for her or the children, particularly for the children, to come and go to school or wherever, so the communities and shelters are very, very sensitive to these issues and try to take all the measures appropriate within the law to protect women from further abuse once they leave that situation. The state laws are highly variable in the safeguards that are offered and I'll come back to this, but the Department of Justice is working very hard to try to address that and to improve the outcomes in the justice system so it's not a matter of whether you live in Nevada versus Arkansas versus Vermont or Florida, but that you can depend on getting justice before the law in any state in your community. Finally, on the last piece of it, what we are doing on the health side is from having research programs and trying to identify what it is that works to protect women, to change batterer behavior, all the other steps along the way we are working to support those services that are best shown to be effective and we do have about an $86 million shelter program that's funded through the Department of Health and Human Services and we have a number of other interventional-type programs that are being funded at the community level often through state health departments to put into place some of these safety nets so that women and children and even indeed, sometimes when it's men who are being victimized, they deserve equal access but over ninety percent of the cases of family and intimate violence are committed against women and against children as ______ ______ about but when men are abused they also can find shelter and there are even fewer battered men shelters in this country. Men find it far more difficult to come forward because what man wants to admit he's been beaten up by his wife? But it's not just in that situation it's men who are beaten up by their daughters who are _______ from their care givers and you know and that's even more shameful. It's bad enough a mother won't admit that her daughter is beating her up but it's even tougher for a father, you know, an elder who is requiring full-time care and care giver burn-out is significant. So, there are a variety of programs underway targeting these ______ _______ areas that I've just sort of painted over and water-colored here. I'm sorry if I'm not more specific but this gives you some ideas of what we're trying to do on the health side. On the justice side, there is a Violence Against Women office that's headed by Bonnie Campbell, and in fact, one of the formal partnerships we have is through the advisory counsel on domestic violence. They meet twice a year and try to provide advice to both Departments to Attorney General Janet Reno and to Secretary of HHS, Donna Shelela? on what strategies and what issues are the most critical to be addressed on both sides of justice and health. We, on the justice side as well, they also participate in funding of shelters and in assessment on the justice side. What is it that happens when the batterer and the victim go to court what are appropriate sentences, what are appropriate treatment strategies. We have some partnerships on certain probation area programs, you know and batterer training, if you will, not sound like we are going to train them to be batterers, that's not what I mean, God forbid. But it's on the intervention side to help batterers change bad behavior so we've got some small things that we are doing, HHS is doing with Justice and of course, Justice is trying to work to educate those in the justice communities to take domestic violence seriously to document completely in the record even when there is no interest on the part of the victim to file charges because what we have found is in some states where the laws are so bad, a woman may have called the police, three, four or five times about the incident that she's in but when she actually comes to the point of taking action, the police have no record of any of those calls, no record of the outcome and no documentation of any abuse because she decided at the time not to press charges. So they, you know, if you will, they came, they appeared, the batterer was simply subdued by the presence of the uniformed officers and the situation resolved for the time being, so there were no charges pressed. But it continues, the abuse continues, you know, four, five or six times, however many, with no record. So the woman coming into court trying to prove a history here, is totally at the mercy of the officers who responded at the scene, you know, providing back-up that is used if there was problem that they have responded to. So, Department of Justice is working with state attorney general to try to address the inequities in the law, to try to improve that situation. I think I'll probably stop there because I can give you more specifics on some of these areas but very little else on some of the others. So, if you do have any questions, then I'll try to answer or at least give you a number that you can call to try to get the answer.

Question: You had mentioned that, I'm interested in male abuse. Is that the same as women's as far as [cannot understand here].

Answer: No. No, it a bit different although fundamental principles and again, we know even less about men as victims, male victims of female abusers than we know about female victims of male abusers. But, you know, it's the principles of the same, the abuse, the violence is coming from the frustrations and pent-up inability to express the needs or to feel that anyone you know is listening to what it is going on and you know, and some people just can't take that step in a humane and civil way and they just lash out with fists or weapons or whatever. In that respect, they are similar but what we have seen and what we, I don't if the data are there yet but the behavioral scientists tell me the approach to women is going to need to be a bit different than the approach to male batterers, female batters vs. male.

Question: [CANNOT HEAR THE QUESTION]

Answer: For male batterers? You would do similar but it's probably going to be weighted differently, if you will, you know, there may be three or four steps in correcting that behavior and I don't mean that they are done in three or four days or three or four months. This is a long-term process because people get to the point, you know, in twenty or thirty years, however long, they are not going to change overnight. And, in fact, some never do change. But, you know constantly with them and providing positive reinforcement for appropriate expression of emotional needs or frustration or whatever. The basic principle is going to be the same for men batterers as for female batterers but are they exactly. You know, we should say the same works for a male batterer as you say for a female, no.

Question: Does it make a difference how long [cannot hear the rest of the question].

Answer: No. To my knowledge, or my reading of the data, batterers come with either, you know, life-long histories and it may be during the relationship with a new victim and the very first experience is a violent experience so time in a relationship, I mean this batterer could have many years of violence and abuse behind him that's never been reported by prior victims and finally, comes into one and the first occasion is violent and that's the one that's reported. So, there's not a factor in length of the relationship that could be more at risk or less at risk.

[Cannot hear what participant says here.]

[Someone is talking but I cannot understand who - it's all broken up.] ......... the violence is only when nothing else would work. It's the ultimate end, so when you think ___________________ the violence occurred _____________________ way back when. _______________________________________________.

Answer: In this country, there is no punishment of the victim by law. Sometimes what has happened in very prominent families the woman been, if you will, a social victim. Her friends ostracize her because they see this fine upstanding lawyer, doctor, businessman or whatever and he could possible do that so she gets perhaps a social stigma from having reported. But the police don't come after her they do not further victimize her. Sometimes also though in court, the courts until the past couple years, have often not been sympathetic to women as you will. But that has changed and we still have a way to go. But it's definitely improving. So do want to go ahead and tell them the answer or can you....... [People talking over each other].

[Someone is talking very low and you cannot understand]. Question: Which women are more likely to be abused ................

Answer: I don't know those data specifically. My sense is that it's equal opportunity across all races and ethnicities and all incomes. [Someone's talking in the background]. We have serious problems, absolutely in many communities in this country that __________ reporting and that's one reason we just don't know what those data are but what we do have indicates it's not limited to just one group of people of any income or any race and ethnicity. It could be anyone in this room, it could be our sisters, our brothers, our parents or our children, anybody.

Question: At the beginning, you mentioned a specific violence against women act. I would like to know a little about that. Is that a nationwide ____________ and how is it different from ____________.

Answer: The Violence Against Women Act was actually a collection of laws, if you will, that was passed, I want to say 1993, 1994, by Congress. So, it's Federal, it's national legislation it provided funding it provided certain judicial standards and target _____________ for the criminal justice system to achieve in addition to providing funding for some of the health related programs, shelters and evaluations of community-level intervention and so forth. And um, I believe the legislation is available on the Department of Justice's web page. So, if you can get onto the Internet and get into the U.S. Government or get into doj.gov I believe is the Department of Justice web page address. There was another hand up here. Yes.

Question: Representing a youth organization what can we do to help to decrease domestic violence. What are some things ......]

Um, that's necessary _________________________ you know, again that sense of only being able to resort to a violent act, to respond whatever you're dealing with individually, is learn somewhere in and I argue it's probably learned in an environment even if the environment itself is not violent there is still probably some acting out there that is permissive of lashing out in the home. So, um, I mentioned the projects, the new dating violence project particularly, there have been groups that have come together, the YWCA, and again, I'm obviously more urban-focused than _______. This country has really neglected a lot of rural health issues and we're only now realizing that. But the Y has been acting in some areas with huge efforts to stem youth violence. I don't know if 4-H clubs have been and I forget the Australian woman at our table mentioned you have __________ 4-H in Australia, a youth group that agriculturally, for instance, future farmers, this was another youth group and it wasn't scouting, it was another youth group, but um, rural farmers, yes, yes, that was it. Whether it's groups like that might be mobilized to address this issue again in partnership. You have the key center on women's health care in Australia, it might be a good resource on violence, and research issues and so forth in your country.

It's been my experience that often rural schools and _______ teens groups and do a lot of conscience raising with their peers so that often teens will listen to what other teens say about ______ behavior. One of the seven counselors in Virginia they have had mothers and daughters come out and they had cut off the enrollment because there were so many mothers and daughters who were interested in the education. And they had the teen girls, just to the girls, and ______________________.

Um, that reminded me as well of something that just as quickly fleeted out of my mind, my mind is a terrible thing to lose. Now, I'll come back to it, it'll come back I'm sure, it was something said specifically about oh, it was youth sports and that sense of consciousness raising. There have been a few churches in rural who have really taken leadership on this and other health issues and it's difficult for churches that may actually have been preaching the scriptural spare the rod, spoil the child sort of perspective. But they are realizing that this you know, carrying it to extreme actually gets far worse than was ever intended so some churches through their youth groups through adult advocacy have really been active in addressing this and it's that same level through youth ________ you know, in the community.

Question: [Cannot understand - too broken up to type or make sense.]

Oh, I didn't know this was being recorded. [People talking over each other.]

Oh well, too bad. Whoever buys this tape is gonna be wasting their money. At any rate, thanks I think that's a tremendous effort and wonderful that, you know, the churches again it's a good example of the difference they can make. Nonexistent. The gentleman in the back had his hand up. Yes, sir.

[Can't hear question].

Well, the comment was it in El Salvador, they have an active program that has attended about 60,000 people in an urban area or small town? Rural. 13 cities and widely disbursed throughout the country then. And the question is how then to address or expand this program into the rural areas and this is much of what we have been talking about if there are community leaders or you know, in the rural area they are still often networks, farm cooperatives, the farm bureau, other organizations that may be supporting the farmers in a cooperative fashion, supporting the population and if they can be informed about the level of the problem and about the resources of your organization or your agency and the ability to reach out and provide some services, you know, they may start then to invite you and in turn tell others, you know, and expand that out, the word of mouth, as they see others in their neighboring communities. It would be programs much as we have talking about here that in many cases it is word of mouth that these programs extend out that someone will talk to someone in, you know, churches that might see each other in a cooperative venture in community groups or a relative in the next town and they spread the word that way. So.

Question: We just have one quick question. You might be able to help us with this. What is it more in the rural areas than in the urban areas more violence? Or the other way around or is it about the same? You have said that you estimate between one and three million woman or people are abused. How many women in total in the United States like what's that percentage?

Answer: The first question on urban vs. rural. Um, again the data are not good enough to tell us that this is a bigger problem in urban areas than it is in rural. Just because we may say, we may see numbers that say zero or you know, ten cases. If it's not being reported it could be hundred, ten-thousand case, we wouldn't know. And then your second question, the estimate of anywhere from one and a half to three million women in the United States who may be victims out of a population of U.S. women approximately [tape ends].

...........some form of punishment for the batterer but often the police just look the other way and ...right [people talking in the background over each other] Right. The court doesn't go far enough to get her and I'm not Oprah Winfrey. The question, the comment and the general sense of the discussion for purposes of the tape is that we have participants here from El Salvador which is making some inroads into changing the perception that violence is ok and expected. El Salvador is acting very strongly to try to say no, this is not acceptable. Our participants from Mexico and M________ are saying that there is not that level of recognition or awareness yet in those countries and that if women do report they may have no response from the police or eventually the police may come and do something if it is particularly bad but, you know, there may be women's organization in an urban area but there is nothing available for women living in rural areas.

And it's not unlike what has happened in this country here in the United States. Our oldest battered women's shelters are only about 20 or 25 years old. So, you know, this country it's not an old country, it's just about 225 years old for 200 of those years it seemed like it must have been ok. Because there was no response and no organized capacity to respond and say this is intolerable, so we had to change the culture here and it took some very brave and daring women and men to say this was not acceptable and you know, while what we did here isn't necessarily isn't going to work in M_______, in Mexico, in El Salvador, there will still be some elements that will be the same and it will take leadership, it will take courage to stand up in the face of culture that sometimes, you know, that's who we are, it's what we are, it is our culture and it is very difficult to change that, it takes years, generation. Lots of hands have gone up. I've either made people angry or haven't gone far enough. Mildred, I can read your name tag. And I'll repeat your question.

Question: I'm from Canada and I represent the Federated Women's Institute from Canada which is a rural organization and we have been studying this issue of violence, family violence for at least 10 years and our studies have, you know, we have said and we have found that violence begets violence and we have worked hard in our awareness programs to break this cycle of violence. We found that this is where we've got to go. And we have lobbies because we work in the rural areas and Canada is much more isolated probably in a lot of these countries and the United States has isolated areas. So, because we are also a national organization we have lobbies government. We have succeeded in having anti-stalking laws legislated and also the fact that was made a state law more than anything else ______ Federal law. Once a woman complains to the police, then the police lay the charges, the woman does not and we have felt that that was a big step forward and it is a Federal law.

Great. A participant reporting that the Federated Women's Institute in Canada has made great inroads that Canada does have a Federal policy that allows the police to arrest the batterer when a woman reports and it's throughout Canada and that they are also actively pursuing some safe shelter and so forth for women in the very rural areas of the country.

There's a video that has been produced by farm women in Canada called, "Fear on the Farm" and it does show that this is a rural farm case that farms aren't a safe place that we used to always consider them.

"Fear on the Farm". It's a video? Good, ok.

Participant: I'm an Administrator of a refuge in New South Wales and I don't really do any case management. But one thing that I've really found very valuable there is what we call child support and the child support group is for residents and ex-residents. And after our clients leave the refuge, we have three programs for children of different ages where the child support work is encouraged, what we regard as normal behavior so that the they, the children start educating what is normal and acceptable and what is not normal and acceptable even with little children pushing and bullying other little children and it really has been an exceptional program and um, the other thing that I wanted to mention, we have just started a national data collection with a huge database that's going in right across the state and our entry into as soon as a client comes in the door is now going to be computerized and go straight into a data collection base in Sydney and one more thing that may be of use too, um, in Victoria, there's only one help line and if you are trying to find anybody in a refuge you just go through one number and because of security and they've got a huge database there, and they know where the people are but the number of the refuge's are never given out to anybody, even other refuges. We can only leave messages and if somebody is within that refuge they can contact us. We haven't got that security in New South Wales but it certainly is in place in Victoria and that one number is just a national number right across the state, a statewide number that is advertised.

Lecturer: That's great. That's a great level of protection. Other question, Dante, why don't you go ahead.

Participant: I wanted to comment that also in Mali? you have to recognize the extreme cultural difference that they experience there because you said there are countries in the world where you are not even allowed to hit a woman with a flower let alone beat them in public, and in Mali?, it's tolerated and in fact it's inculturated as part of their religion which is predominantly Muslim that you can beat a woman including in public and many people won't even recognize that that is a negative thing to do. She said that's why this association that's trying to push for the rights of women has met with so much contention because they are suggesting something that's contrary to the foundations of the culture and that they have really have met with a tremendous amount of resistance to... Excuse me? She said no it's predominantly the men in this religion who are putting themselves against this association and the women are not allowed to stand up for themselves but both the religion and the men believe that as a cultural institution it's a positive thing.

Lecturer: Good, thanks. I took advantage of that to find this piece of paper. Down on the exhibit table is a general fact sheet from my office the 800 number here, the toll free domestic violence hotline is 1-800-799-SAFE and I don't know what those numbers are, what those letters translate to but, 1-800-799-SAFE. SAFE. And elder abuse prevention there is a toll free number to call there as well, 1-800-311-3435 that one is monitored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, but if they can't help you they will refer you to the agency on aging or the agency for children and families that would have additional information. Yeah. Can you come up to the microphone?

Participant: This is a comment more than a question. In any culture, people are very tight-lipped, they are very closed and because the isolation which is kind of very tight. But as a big correlation between commodity prices and alcoholism and spousal abuse. It's definitely, and yet that what when they get very ______________ or man into getting a better price and making a better living because they are also thinking about themselves physically. So, it's very important that we talk about the alcoholism also and child abuse, and incest and it's a lot of those problems they have in the city that's been in the community ___________ for many, many times nobody talks about it. And because people are so isolated they keep it quiet. So, I am just telling you more as a comment as _______________________________.

Lecturer: The commenter points out the correlation between commodity prices, alcoholism and violence and it reminds me of the same experience we had in HIVA. I worked in that arena for about eight years and in fact, the response in rural areas apparently people in rural areas didn't have sex. They weren't at risk for AIDS, you know, but it was funny when they come to the big city, you know, it was a whole different story. I understand exactly what you are saying because the patterns identified there and risk-taking behaviors are exactly what you are describing and does indeed feed into issues of abuse and alcoholism is a huge contributor and even if it's not alcoholism, alcoholism and substance abuse that, you know, regardless of what it is, it could be diet pills that are being abuse, um, you know, that somebody's not quite the drug addict or not quite the alcoholic but nonetheless factors in to the abusive situation.

Participant: One of these women from Mexico wanted to know what you can do if you are stalked. Well, anywhere in general. I mean I told them that in Canada there are anti-stalking laws but I don't believe are any here in the States and they know are none in Mexico, so, if you could just tell them.

Lecturer: The laws here in the U.S. I am not remembering if the stalking, there was a stalking provision in the Violence Against Woman Act I. But I think that not all the states implemented it. Wasn't it a state, I mean some states have pretty extensive protection against stalking and others I know of a case where a woman currently is being stalked, she had a protective order and um, the protective order expired, she was never notified and she has no recourse now before the law has to start all over again with the courts to try to get that back into play. So, um, you know, that's in a relatively well-to-do area, it's not just a rural area and not just an ignorant state, I mean this is a place that surely should know better but it's still the case, you know, she has no protection as long as she doesn't have this Order out there and from my understanding of what is happening in states that they've made it much easier. You don't actually have to have a protective Order against the stalking. It's just documented, you know, that pattern that obviously a protective order is going to be even better but from my understanding of what's happened in a number of states it's a law that if a woman feels as though someone is calling her all the time, following her places and you know and can show by a reasonable person's standards that this appears to be the case, she can take legal action. But, I don't think that's the case throughout the U.S.

Participant: [Cannot hear.]

Lecturer: I couldn't begin because I've only ever been a white middle class woman in the United States and um, I don't know the culture well enough in maybe in principle.

Participant: Let people know just as a human being of letting people know if there's, if someone is stalking you, maybe all the neighbors know, let them know, make it aware, it's not a secret, there's too many things that are violence against women that are secrets and it's quiet and we can't talk. You tell your Pastor, or your Priest, you tell the police, you tell people and you keep telling them.

Lecturer: That's a good point.

Participant: Everything's a secret and we keep quiet.

[People talk over each other.]

Lecturer: What was your comment back there?

Participant: _______________________________. The law can protect us legally but you can be damned if it's too late. _____________________________________ you have to protect yourself or your immediate neighbors or somebody that knows you. _______________________.

Lecturer?: A personal protection order or restraining order or anti-stalking laws, legislation is a piece of paper. After the fact, it does, obviously it's helpful. It certainly is. But it's a piece of paper. Not to talk to clients on a clinical or an ideal way is on a day-to-day is how to protect themselves, to be safe. Yes, we do the PPO's, we get those in 24 hours. I'm not sure what happens here. I can get those exparte within six hours. But then there's ultimately the actual reality of the situation, now there's the paperwork but the reality is how do you stay safe and how do you teach people to stay safe. In reality. That's what counts. And in countries where there's not a PPO or another judicial that will respond then it's a matter of how do you stay safe, keep your children safe and your family

safe.

Lecturer: There are in some women's networks the recommendation that you have a bag packed and stored with a friend you can trust extra set of keys that sort of thing, everything ready that you know if you are being threatened, directly stalked, or in any other kind of threat. Do you have a safe house? [People talking in the background.]

Participant: There's a lot of places to go in the big cities but when you get out to the rural communities there's no place to go and no one to call.

Lecturer: And even family, as the participant points out, isn't always the safest place to go because the family can be in denial or think this is not a problem, you know, you're the wife, you're the mother. It's good for the family to stay.

Participant: Some countries they don't have telephones, the don't have cars. So, then your at the mercy and _____________.

You know, in Michigan, we have a lot of trailers, mobile homes. They don't have access to a car, they are ten miles off the nearest paved road. And this is in Michigan, and they don't have access to phones. We know that. The phone was disconnected, they called woman's ___________ you call them 30 minutes later, we're sorry the phone's been disconnected.

Lecturer: Yeah, these are difficult issues and um, I wish I were more expert and some of you are far more expert here than I am. Any further question? I am sure we can use time for just informal discussion. I really appreciate those of you sharing your experience and things that you've been able to do in your communities to really take action. There was another hand up.

Participant: I'm from Alaska and I have a catering business and ran into this problem. What do I do with all the leftovers, you know, you have kippered salmon and stuff like that and yet you hate to throw it away so I started taking it to our Valley Women's Resource Center which is a building that was built with state dollars to take care of women and their children and stuff that are in these kinds of situations and I never really thought much about it. I never was allowed to go in, you had to push a button and it was just scary, you know. And then about eight years ago I developed a blood problem that makes me, if I black out on the chair I'll get one. And people started that I didn't know started it was like they had a hard time conversing with me because they were so busy looking at my hands and my arms and so, it was about that same time that they started allowing me to carry my food into the facility and I saw some of these women and it was really, really scary. And but in looking at them, I thought to myself, there's got to be a commonality here, I mean there's got to be something that you should be able to spot, you know, if you're an outsider and the thing that I came away with thinking and you probably would know if I'm all wet is that these ladies don't seem to want to make eye contact. Is that what it is?

Participant: Oh, yeah. There's no trust. Your trust has been completing eroded. [People talking over each other.]

Participant: Because if you've never had a problem like that you've been married to the same old pussy cat for 44 years, you know, it's hard to believe that somebody would beat on you. You know, and make marks on you.

Lecturer: Why doesn't she leave? The question itself is erroneous. The question should be why does he do what he does? Why does he hit, why does he intimidate, why does he make her think she's crazy? The question is why doesn't she leave? The question is a patriarchal question, ____________ I'm not gonna get out whatever. That's a patriarchal question, it comes from the perspective that the ownership of responsibility is on her. Excuse me. Hello. And I don't care if you could switch genders when you are talking in lesbian relationships or you can do it generational or anything else but for the predominant, it's the male. It's a patriarchal question. Why doesn't she leave? The questions we ask sometimes need to be looked at and what's not being asked.

Participant: Well, my question is, is there a way that those of us who don't have the power to spot those who do have the power. I mean I'd like to help these people, but you know, you don't just walk up to somebody and say you are not making eye contact with me, do you have a problem at home?

Lecturer: You are helping by being a caterer and giving your excess food where it can be used. Because these shelters are in very strapped financially in many cases, and literally are going day by day by day on....

Participant: ______________________ a stalking law and we also have a law that if you call 911 on a domestic violence thing and you change your mind before the police get there it's too bad. That person is going jail for overnight and I don't know if that's a Federal thing or ....

Lecturer: It's a spin-off from the Violence Against Women Act but I don't think every state has it. My recollection is it's not even half the states that had the leadership to do that. I mean you may know better than I do.

?: I don't know which of the states. I know a lot of them do that I've talked to but I never paid attention to who does what.

Lecturer: My sense is it hasn't gone fully to all 50 states and the District.