Tape #212 - Reducing Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide

 

 

My name is Velma Childshannon and I'm with the United States Department of Agriculture here in the Washington office and I'll be the moderator.  We're going to tape this session so We're asking that if you have a question that you speak into the mike.  And our presenters today Toni Compston with Bentley Aerodynamic in Mindon, Nevada and Tammy Newark, TechnoServ Incorporated, Washington, D.C.  They will introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about each.

 

Hi, my name is Toni Compston and just to give you a little bit of a background since we don't have our bios.  I'm a six generation Nevadan.  I went to college at Calpoly, graduated in 1990.  While I was there I was a member of the Livestock Judging Team.  I grew up showing heifer cattle and was a member of the 4-H clubs and currently I work for Bently Aerodynamic and our ranch is owned by actually a mechanical engineer by Don Bently.  He has an international business and he also owns 26,000 acres of ranch land which we have about 300 head of cattle and then about 8,000 acres of forge crops, garlic and chalets.

 

I'm going to turn the lights down a little bit during this presentation and then Tammy will give hers and then at the conclusion of our presentations we'll have some time for questions and answers. 

 

With the global warming and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, there are a lot of implications of change and hopefully this will cover some of the nature of the situation.  The greenhouse effect is responsible for life as we know it today.  It keeps the earth about 60 degrees F. or about 35 degrees Celsius.  Warmer than it would otherwise be.  The water vapor, I know this might be a little difficult for you to see, but the water vapor, carbon dioxide and other trace gases such as methane and nitrous oxide trap the heat into the atmosphere and keep it from radiating outside of the atmosphere.  With increased population, increased pollution, there has also been an increase in the insulation effect and that is responsible for what is known as global warming.  And that is why our earth is about one degree warmer than it was a hundred years ago. 

 

And according to a recent article that many of you may have seen in the National Geographic magazine, since 1980 the world has experienced three of the hottest years on record. 

 

With climate change the intergovernmental panel on climate change has estimated that rising carbon dioxide emissions are primarily from burning fossil fuels and they account for about sixty percent of the warming since the industrial revolution in the 1850s.  Methane gas has also increased in emissions by about 15%.  Primarily the methane gas which is a combination of all of these things which totals the 15%.  They say it’s from the bacteria and the rice fields, decomposing garbage in landfills, cattle ranching in some areas of the world as well as fossil fuel production.  The IPCC also projects that in the next hundred years, the global average temperature will rise between one to 3.5 degrees Celsius. 

 

Now exactly how the earth’s climate is going to respond to this is a question that’s been answered in a variety of different ways.  But what they do know is that it’s going to depend on the complex interactions that there are between the atmosphere, the oceans, the land, ice and the biosphere. 

 

In regards to agriculture there are several questions that we have in regards to what’s going to happen with the warming effect in food production.  Could the beneficial effects of carbon dioxide enrichment on crop growth partially offset the negative effects of climate change?  They also wonder if the average temperate of the air actually does increase by the amount that they project in the models.  What would the probable impact be on agricultural productivity?  And they also take into consideration who may benefit and who may suffer from this. 

 

Another question that we face is what can be done by all of us as farmers and ranchers to adapt to the climate change and to adapt food production systems to minimize the harmful effects.  Now as far as the frustration potential, we know that a wide variety of human activities contribute to greenhouse gas emissions and those human activities are what you referred to as antrophoegenic in a lot of articles that you read when you see that term.  It means that anything that is done in the atmosphere that is directly human related. 

 

Burning of coal oil and natural gases releases approximately seven billion tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere each year.  Of that seven billion tons, three billion metric tons remain in the atmosphere while the rest is able to be sequestered in terrestrial plants as well as in ocean sinks.  What they're trying to do here in this slide is from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers who just met recently, they're trying to find new ways to sequester the carbon dioxide in different types of plants, agroforestry, they’s trying to create new fuels.  All of which can be used to heat our homes, fuel for our vehicles and types of things like that.  So what they're trying to do in this situation is sequester some of that rather than having emitted into the atmosphere. 

 

There are indirect as well as direct effects of global warming.  Some of the experiments actually resolve that the elevated carbon dioxide concentrations on crops maybe beneficial in some areas.  In fact effect the response include the availability of the plant nutrients including how well taken care of the soil is, the crop species, temperate, the amount of precipitation as well as some other environmental factors. 

 

There is also a concern as to the changes in the soils depending on the area.  Some places actually experience a loss of organic matter and leaching of the soil nutrients, salanation and erosion may likely occur due to climate change. 

 

They're anticipating a change in livestock production for a variety of reasons.  The production will be effected because where you're able to grow grain which will effect the price of grain, the changes in the prevalence and the distribution of the livestock pest.  Some pest may actually become more resistant to the heat and resistant to other pesticides that may have been able to get rid of them.  So not only are we adapting, but the insects and grazing and pasturing everything is adapting to the amount of precipitation as well as the change in climate.

 

We do know that we are emitting greenhouse gases into the air faster than we can naturally take care of them.  And the best guess from the intergovernmental panel on climate change says that by the 20100, they're expecting the earth to increase another two degrees Celsius which would be about 3.5 degrees F.. 

 

There may be some possible benefits to global warming.  Enhanced carbon dioxide assimilation may be one.  Longer growing seasons and the longer growing seasons would take place in the areas that currently colder.  Because there be shift everything will move north.  Increased precipitation in some areas.  Primarily the increased precipitation would take place in the United States, Europe and Canada and north of that areas. 

 

Carbon dioxide enriched crops may use less water due to photo respiration even while they produce more carbohydrates.  This is especially true of what is called C-Three plants and C-Three plants take in everything except corn, soybean and sugar cane and crops of that nature.  And they're all considered C-four plants and they also use less water due to photo respiration but not to the degree that the C-Three plants do.  This dual effect is likely to improve water efficiency and with that water efficiency we may actually have a higher ratio of bio mass in relation to the amount of water used to produce that.

 

More vegetation.  The more green we have things, the more carbon dioxide that can be scavenged from the atmosphere, may actually slow down the global warming process.  This illustration I got from Cynthia Rosenwig who has done a considerable amount of work on this topic and this shows the red areas here may experience a 30% decrease in their grain yields as well as this area here.  The yellow right in here will experience 10% decrease where these areas in green in here will have about a 10% increase in their grain yields, where these in the dark will be 30% increase.  But what you'll notice up here is as this is turning green, We're going to have a melting of the ice that’s up there which will increase the sea levels.

 

Now some of the possible drawbacks of the global warming on agriculture maybe more frequent and severe drought especially in the more southerly regions.  Heat stress on plants, you may have plants that have a faster growth cycle, but a shorter growing period resulting in a shorten life cycle.  And the continued cycling of these plant nutrients which are carbon, nitrogen, phosphate, potassium and sulfur.  In the soil plant atmosphere system is likely to accelerate in the warmer conditions.  And this would actually enhance the carbon dioxide and the nitrous oxide greenhouse gases emissions.  You may experience soil fertility and erosion problems.

 

Warmer conditions are likely to speed up the natural decomposition of the organic matter and to increase the rates of the other soil processes that effect fertility.  We need to apply additional fertilizer and in order to counter the process and take advantage of the full enhanced crop growth.  But this can result in increased carbon dioxide and it can also come at an environmental cost for additional uses of chemicals may also impact the water and the air quality.  Dryer soil conditions will suppress both the root growth and decomposition of organic matter and increase vulnerability of wind erosion if the wind intensify. 

 

Water availability is a big concern.  Increased evaporation from the soil and accelerated transpiration in the plants themselves will cause moisture stress and as a result there was a great need to develop varieties of plants that have higher drought resistance and tolerance.  The demand for irrigation is projected to rise in warmer climates.  This brings increased competition, there is already competition between agriculture which is one of the larger consumer of water in the semi-air regions.  And the urban areas as well as industrial users.   And regardless of whether the temperate heats up and by how much, we need to always be concerned about the availability of water because poor water systems lead to the degradation of land and the better water management we have the longer agriculture is going to be able to be sustained.

 

I talked about earlier in the area that that was greener that was heating up where the ice would be melting and they estimate that if the water were to rise one meter and this is just an example in Florida this area in red as well as these areas up here that are red, would be completely be inundated by water.  And that’s just by a one meter rise in sea level.  Other areas would also be affected by this, parts of Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, China and the Netherlands because they are low lying coastal areas and they already suffer from poor drainage. 

 

There are several ways that we can adapt at the farm level.  We can introduce later maturing crop varieties.  We can switch crop cropping sequences.  We can sow our crops earlier and adjust timing in the field operations.  One of the concerns is that in the area where there is more precipitation, we may need to change our harvest time, because it maybe raining all the time during the time We're usually harvesting.  We have to conserve moisture through appropriate tillage methods, improve irrigation efficiency. 

 

Now in terms of world emissions, as of 1995, a 73% of the total carbon dioxide emissions came from developed countries.  And it shows in this blue area here.  The developed countries include the United States, Europe, Asia.  And over the next few decades, they expect that 90% of the world’s population growth will take place in developing countries as will the per capita energy use in those countries.  China which is currently second largest source is expected to have displaced the U.S. as the largest emitter by the year 2015.  The primary reason that China may displace the United States is that their burning fossil fuels and coal for energy because it is cheap.  They also grow a substantial amount of rice there and they expect that the methane gas may also contribute to the warming.

 

Now agriculture can also be a contributor in some areas.  Agriculture can cause accelerated soil erosion by water and wind, cultivation and it also introduces nitrate and some other chemical into the water supplies when we apply excessive application of chemical fertilizers and pesticides.   So what we'll need to do is regulate and possibly limit but not eliminate our chemical fertilizers as well as our pesticides. 

 

The clearing of forest for fields and crop burning of crop residues and also the submerging of land and rice paddies, raising large herds of cattle in some areas of the world and other remnants all release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.  And like I talked about earlier a combination of all those things was about 15% of the total methane gas.

 

We will also have to seek some economic adaptation.  Shifts in regional production centers and adjustments of capital land and labor allocations are going have to be made.  Trade adjustments should also shift commodity productions to regions where comparative advantage improves.  Now in areas where comparative advantage is declining, labor and capital may have to move out of agriculture into alternative sectors.  And this is all if the climate warms to the degree that the models are saying that they might. 

 

Technology adaptation.  We could breed heat and drought resistance crop varieties.  Find sources of resistance to changing diseases and insects as well as tolerances to heat and water stress.  We could find crop varieties with a higher harvest index that will help keep irrigated production efficient under conditions of water, reduced water supplies and enhance demands.  We may also have genetic manipulation that can also help exploit the beneficial effects of carbon dioxide enhancement on crop growth as well as water use.  And all of these things are already being done. 

 

Bio-mass energy is another way we can help sequester the carbon and use it to our advantage.  And what bio-mass energy is is energy from organic materials such as woody crops, crop residues, solid waste and animal waste.  And a lot of technologies already exist that take energies from these chemical compounds.  By creating bio-fuels we can reduce carbon dioxide as well as sustained economic growth.  True photosyntheses, plants capture the sunlight and transfer it into chemical energy which most of us probably learned somewhere along the line.  This energy can then be converted into electricity, heat or liquid fuels using a number of the different energy conversion processes.  The organic resources used to produce energy using these processes are all collectively called bio-mass. 

 

Now in terms of uncertainty there are several questions that you have to ask yourself and one of them is how accurate are these research models?  They're all computer based models and what I found from a lot of research that I've done is that a lot of these forget to take into consideration the political, the economic and the social aspects of the different countries.  A lot of them just take into consideration this is how much the atmosphere, this is what the temperate rise is going to be, but they forget that people and animals and pests our environment adapts as things change.

 

Another question like I said is there is no way of predicting what the future social, economic, political or technical changes might be.  We may be able to presume or think about what we might like them to be like, but there is no 100% sure way of knowing what our future holds for us. 

 

Another question I find interesting is can productivity continue to improve with technology change?  How much further are we going to go?  And one of the things that seems to be prevalent and they seem to change their mind a lot about this is the Keodie treaty.  Currently it legally binds 38 developed countries including the United States, Japan, the European Union and the former Soviet Republic countries to reduce emissions by placing and at the same time it places no emission requirements on the 136 developing countries who greenhouse gases are expected to increase the most dramatically over the next 100 years.

 

So all of us need to do our part in reducing the emissions, sequestering the carbon dioxide.  The United States Department of Energy Biofuel systems programs have come up with a lot of different technologies in order to convert different bio-mass into fuels and as I have spoken with several people here at the conference and a lot of people are already doing this, I know that I spoke with a woman yesterday and she said that they're burning soybean oil in the buses in South Dakota I believe it is and Nebraska also.  And I know that this happening all over and the more we convert, the more we can help. 

 

It is estimated that 10% of the earth cropland, pasture and forest could provide 44 billion barrels of oil equivalent of bio-mass based energy annually which is over 50% of which could be from developing countries rather than burning fossil fuels.  In order to fully utilize the use of bio-fuels to mitigate the release of greenhouse gases, international research and technology deployment cooperation is important.  So this can't just be one country or few countries doing this, this is something that if we believe in it and believe that it’s true and that it can happen, they know that its warming up, they're not exactly sure why, it’s going to take effort from everyone.

 

Along with this comes a concept of sustainable agriculture and some things that we can do to reduce the emissions or reducing, like I said, reducing chemical inputs, not eliminating and the fossil fuel energy use in the farm systems in order to minimize the environmental impact.  And we also by doing this can ensure long term productivity.

 

We can introduce and continue to introduce high efficiency water conserving technologies for irrigation systems.  We can utilize a system of composting to enhance carbon by the plants and also to conserve water.  And by using a system of composting or any type of system where you have a carbon nitrogen combination, the compost and the

[inaudible] actually holds the water around the plants and not only are you keeping the carbon in the ground and in the plants you're also conserving water.  And you can also conduct research to determine specific crop varieties that reduce the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.  And I talked earlier about the C-Three plants and what I've found and what We're been planning to do this is there are a variety of crops, agroforestry crops, such as the hybrid poplar trees, eucalyptus they also have, willows actually very good for sequestering the carbon as well as swiss grass, pasture grasses and a lot of the perennial crops that a lot of you probably already grow such as some of the alfalfa crops, soybean crops.  Anything that has a fast growing plant that keeps that takes the carbon into the plant.

 

Anyway in an effort to reduce the greenhouse emissions and to slow down the global warming, like I said earlier it’s going to take cooperation as well as research and the most important thing that we can think about here is that the population growth and technological changes are particularly relevant to the subject.  And can greatly affect the upper and lower bounds of possible projections.

 

I want you to know also that in all the research that I've done on this topic.  I've gotten most of my research from USDA as well as the intergovernmental panel on climate change, the Department of Energy and the Executive Office of the President’s Office of Energy.  What’s important to know is that they don't know how accurate models are.  They know that the earth is warming up and what’s happening right now may not actually the effects of it may not actually be determined until ten years down the road.  But what we can do because we do know it is warming up is we can slow down the process.  And the more green that we have, the more carbon that We're being able to sequester and keep from going into the atmosphere.   And the better job we do with that, the better our industry and agriculture is going to be and one little thing that I always thing of is a kind of saying that fits a lot of different things, but if we settle for less in this situation we most likely going to get a lot less than we settle for. 

 

[Applause]

 

[inaudible - not using mike]

 

...counteract using the residue of crops.

 

There are certain crops that have sequestering affects than others and I like I talked about the C-Three plants are better than what’s considered C-Four.  Luckily, most plants that probably most of us grow are in the C-Three like the pastures and the forage crops.

 

Are you familiar with the growing of sugar cane in Brazil for the ethanol program and the effects that that had down there?

 

I know that they've use it for ethanol but I haven't -- it is not a success and they're having a lot of different types of technology that they're trying with different ethanol, different hydrogen fuels and at this point you know because it’s not cost effective people aren't able to convert at this point and what they're working on and what I was waiting for, that’s why I didn't put any specific types of technology in here.  The Department of Energy is working on a variety of different things, but at this point unfortunately it’s not cost effect to switch everything over. 

 

There are however, different additives that you can add to fossil fuels that are reducing them that are more cost effective in some areas.

 

And at this point there are a lot of things that are being replanted like the hybrid poplar trees that are being able to use for fuel and the thing about them is they are fast growing trees and they are able to use the fuel from those as well as the pulp. 

 

Hi, Gloria Pressean from Saskatchewan Canada.  I'm wondering if you have any information or any experience in carbon credits.  Are you aware of anyone?  Great.

 

And at this point we will let Tammy go ahead and give her presentation and if there is any more questions for either one of us at the conclusion of this we'll go on with that.

 

Thank you very much.  Toni did an excellent excellent job of introducing the whole concept of carbon sequestration and sustainable agriculture and so I think that as the some of the participants here ask the next question so that’s exactly what I'm going to talk about.

 

I work with an organization Techno Serve.  Techno Serve is a non-profit organization.  We actually have a booth outside and there’s a bunch of publications, information and our annual report out there if you'd like further information about Techno Serve.  I also have a colleague in the audience who is part of our Africa department and she could answer some questions pertaining to Africa if you would like after the presentation. 

 

Techno Serve works with rural communities in developing countries to help them start businesses.  So we work in ten countries worldwide in Africa, Latin America and we do have an affiliate in Poland.  And what I do is I serve as the Manager of all of our environmental enterprises and environmental investment activities.  So Tehno Serve has a wide range of programs that focus on technical assistance, market, linkages, financial intermediation in the agro business area. 

 

Environmental enterprises projects incorporate the environmental natural resource component in those programs because we feel certainly in most of the rural communities in which we work, there’s a significant natural resource base.  And the community uses that natural resource base to make money and to run their farms or run their small businesses and we feel that unless they have an economic incentive to preserve that natural resource base, that natural resource base will not be there to take advantage over the longer term.  So that’s why we work in various different areas in the environmental enterprise area which covers sustainable forestry, sustainable maro-culture for fishing, organic agriculture, development of non-timber forest products.  Just a range of environmentally oriented business opportunities.

 

So what I do is try to promote and Techno Serve tries to promote sort an innovative ways to get additional financing to the rural producers to the small scale farmers that we work with.  As you know access to credit, capital is one of the biggest concerns that rural women and these rural communities in developing countries face.  So what they are are different mechanisms that we as well as other organizations like ourselves try to promote and foster.  And so one of the areas that we are looking into is the concept of using carbon credit trading as a means to get additional income into the pockets of the rural producers.

 

So I just want to focus a bit on carbon sequestration and the small scale producers because that’s really where our focus is, those are our clients.  And as we all know and something that Toni also mentioned, small scale producers rely on their watershed, oh I'm sorry, -- so as I was saying that the small scale producer really relies on their natural environment for their livelihood.  So what we have found is that carbon sequestration which is related to agriculture, which is related to forestry has a lot of environmental conservation and restoration elements.  Because you plant trees, that has a carbon sequestration benefits, but also benefits the watershed.  Or you retain the healthy and the intregity of a forest or of a eco-system that is near this rural community.  That has huge carbon sequestration benefits because it serves as a carbon sink, but it also benefits of course the small producer and the community.

 

And then of course you have sustainable agricultural techniques, whether that is using composting, whether that’s using organic means, whether that is using inter-cropping, soil erosion techniques, soil fertility techniques.  Those are all part of how carbon sequestration is related to the healthiness of some of the watersheds and some of the areas.

 

Now, as Toni mentioned and you know what we are discussing here is quite a new area.  I mean, as you know there is empirical evidence that global warming is taking place.  There is evidence that the temperature is rising.  However, the study of this, the research into this area is all quite new.  So whereas we know that renewable energy projects which include bio-mass or we know that forest or peat bogs all serve as carbon sinks.  There is no really direct correlation and we don't have the exact information as to how this all works. 

 

So that’s also related to the carbon sequestration benefits for small scale producers.  So what do we see?  We see ok, there are ways to to sell and market small producer products as an environmental product whether that is organic or whether that is a certified product and that is sort of getting enhanced margins for the small producer.  Or you when you do promote the use of composting or organic agriculture, you don't then use fertilizer and fertilizer is expensive and it does reduce some of the margins that the small producers can use. 

 

The tree crops that we are interested in are coffee and cocoa and you can also look at bananas and you could also look at some wood species and all of those are could be applicable within this carbon sequestration model.  So as you know there are rural communities that use eucalyptus that use fast growing trees or use tree crops both for a food, also to sell it to the market as well as to use it as a fuel source or a building material for the communities in which they live.

 

And then the other area and this is important certainly for in the international donor business or in the type of industry that we work in, there are a lot of resources that are available for rural communities to try to access technical assistance or grant funding to try to really develop these type of carbon sequestration programs and the reason being is that it is a new area.  It is experimentation.  And what we've tried to do is come up with the best models that we could capitalize on which we could then replicate and introduce to other communities in developing countries.

 

So this exactly sort of what we don't know.  We don't know whether using carbon sequestration for small producers will really work.  But that's what we're experimenting with and I think that that what makes it so interesting.  And we don't know what would be the best mechanism to do that.  Is it as Toni talked about a bit with some of the Keioda conference, some of the intergovernmental agencies that look at global climate change issues.  There is a organization called International Joint Implementation and this International Joint Implementation which is a public, private, rural community type partnership is trying to develop various different models in developing countries which could offset, so let's say that in the north industrialized countries, we burn

 

END OF SIDE 1

 

 

so just basis for carbon trading credits.  So you have a factory in the United States and the factory wants to upgrade its system or an American utility wants to build a new plant it's a fossil fuel there is a certain amount of carbon that is emitted.  Well if they are unable to offset that carbon or unable to provide for a way to offset that carbon what they could do is buy the right to emit more of the carbon into the atmosphere and that would then provide that equilibrium for their building that plant or the other thing they could do is pay to preserve the forest.  So for instance right now in Costa Rico its trying to market itself as a country as a carbon sink country.  So it is trying to [inaudible] all the agricultural lands, the forest lands the renewable energy projects into a total that says x amount of carbons tonnage could be sequestered by Costa Rico and then it sells that or it markets that into an international market. 

 

And so [inaudible] probably familiar with emission trading which takes place in the Chicago Board of Trade or takes place here in the U.S. to offset some of the sulfur dioxide in some of pollution that takes place in the Midwestern, east and west coast. 

 

Now since this is a very new area, there are key considerations for the use of this carbon trading schemes.  And the first thing and Toni brought this up already is this agreement on maxing out how much carbon could be emitted by the countries of the world.  So you can actually not create a system of trading until there is a maximum limit and so let's say the United States gets 200 tons and Japan gets a 100 tons and the Soviet Union gets 50 tons.  What the United States has to do is well divvy up all those tonnage to all those companies in the United States that wants to [inaudible].  So once that takes place, then a trading agreement and market can emerge. 

 

Now the issue is whether or not we will get to a point where all the countries will be able to divvy up this carbon and I say a lot of in roads have been made in Kieoda and they're continuing dialogue so I see that coming to pass over the next few years.  And once that is the case, or prior to that taking place, each country has very different financial incentives that they have set up.  So for instance, there could be tax incentives, there could be incentives to grow trees.  There could be incentives to use renewable energy rather than you getting back to the economic issue that you raised and renewable energy systems are not necessarily as economical and certainly in many countries as using gas I mean oil.  [inaudible] various countries could provide financial incentives which will allow for the use of renewable resources or planting trees.

 

And then another question which comes up is pertaining to actually measuring the carbon that is sequestered.  Right now there are various groups worldwide that go into different areas and count the bio-mass, count the soil, count the trees, look at it over a short term, medium term, longer term and say ok this site, this forest actually sequesters x amount of carbon tons.  And then certifies that.  Now there are different groups out there as I mentioned and so as a result there is no sort of standardize procedures yet to actually measure this carbon, and monitor the carbon.  And as a result, you know, the system is not sophisticated enough to absorb sort of a trading scheme, but that is coming.

 

And then another, getting back to my original point Techno Serve is most interested in the small rural producer.  So how do small, it's very easy to look at carbon let's say sequestered or carbon tonnage saved by setting up renewable energy operation.  But how do you actually go into the rural areas and work with the rural groups whether it's cooperatives, whether it's community associations, whether its small or medium size farmers and actually organize them in such a way so that you could sort of measure as well as make sure they could get some benefits from some of the systems and some of the schemes that are coming down the line. 

 

So this gets into something that Techno Serve is working on now and we're looking at coffee as sort of the first tree crop to focus on.  And we've received some funding from the U.S. Agency for International Development and the Ford Foundation to look at working with small producers in five central American countries and those countries are  El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, and Gal and we're doing some work in Costa Rico, so we're really focusing on four countries.  And what we're doing we're setting up a pilot project in Guamaloa.  We're working with a small coffee organic coffee cooperative and we're trying to look at the data from that one coffee cooperative and so extrapolate ok this is what these conditions are in this particular cooperative and this is what given the fact that coffee is such an important tree crop throughout the whole region, this is how much carbon that is actually could be sequestered throughout this whole region and then try to monitorize that and look at the value of that carbon in that region.

 

Now I know this kind of complicated and sort of a long stretch, but it's very important for small producers that are in the agriculture based industries.  I mean certainly when you look at coffee, coffee could be grown two ways.  It could be grown under trees and it could also be grown technified in the sun.  And  [inaudible] our interest to keep the coffee grown under trees.  Because then obviously it has higher carbon sequestration benefits, but also when the coffee goes [inaudible] you use a lot more pesticides, you use a lot more fertilizers and is lot less environmentally beneficial.  So what we're trying to do is look at how carbon sequestration and how trading carbon credits could be another crop for the small producer.  So if the small producer stays with tree grown coffee or shaded  like cocoa or [inaudible] how much more could we get in monetary benefits to the small producer by turning agriculture into a carbon sink which the small producer could actually make money off of.

 

And so what we would like to do is use this as a model project and what we're doing is talking to various small producers, building a coalition throughout the region.  We're trying to create an investment fund as part of this carbon credit trading scheme.  The Joint Implementation Program as I mentioned, what we're doing is submitting a proposal to this Joint Implementation committee in order to demonstrate that this project is viable, its feasible and could be applicable to other coffee plantations as well carbon sequestration agriculture type [inaudible] operations throughout the region and as I said the objective is to try to see whether you could actually get other small producers not only in Central America, but other parts of the world that could set up some type of system that could also take into account take advantage of the carbon credit trading schemes. 

 

So what we're doing is starting with coffee but then what we would like to do is get into cocoa.  And the most interesting aspects of this is besides working with the small producers is actually linking up with the industry in the U.S., in Canada and Europe so that you have for instance in this coffee initiative you then linking up with coffee companies like Starbucks or if you go into cocoa you have recently several months ago it  was the first [inaudible]  cocoa conference in Panama. [inaudible]

 

The idea is really to get the dialogue going and get some of these larger players with the financial resources to have a vested interest in the success of the small producers and the success of this type of system and so not only will organic product or fair trade product, I don't know whether you're familiar with fair trade industry.  But also you'll have products that have a carbon label on it.  And so that way could also help the small producers.   So thank you very much and now Toni and I will be available to answer any questions that you may have.

 

[inaudible]

 

But I know for instance Brazil is not too keen on this, what do you think in terms of equity issues that countries are going to face to implement joint implementation and where are the small farmers going to be in all this.  You talked about the fair trade, but also when you replace a lot of these cash crops such as coffee and cocoa you replace them and you miss the traditional food crops you're also increasing malnutrition and things like that in  [inaudible] how do you think these issues are going to be ?

 

Let me answer your second question first.  I think those are two different points.  The first thing Techno Serve uses some of the tree crops as additional income for the rural producers so in some cases depending on sort of where they are in the economic curve obviously some [inaudible] crops is a priority if the local populations need to feed themselves.  The next step really is to get into the commercial market place and I think that that when some of the international crops or international products like coca and coffee comes into play.  I think that certainly for groups like ourselves, you know, if there is significant malnutrition obviously are focused on first.  And I think that in a lot of the areas where you see sort of the, I mean carbon sequestration project in coffee will only occur on plantations or with farmers that already have some existing sites or where there is a predominance of some of these tree crops and so those are already given sort of the climate competitive advantages of some of the different regions you already have coffee and cocoa growing areas. 

 

Now the other side is the whole issue of using agriforestry forest land management type projects as joint implementation or as a way to reduce [inaudible] projects.  For those of you who are familiar with some of the discussions or arguments for the most part people are not comfortable land management projects.  They are more comfortable using renewable energy projects ...

 

REMAINDER OF TAPE INAUDIBLE